the Pavle Milić show
Pavle Milic has spent 40+ years in the hospitality business — co-founding FnB restaurant in Scottsdale, building Los Milics Vineyards across three Arizona tasting rooms, and writing about wine for Phoenix Magazine for the past decade. Now he's pulling up a chair with people from well outside his own world and seeing where the conversation goes.
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the Pavle Milić show
013: Michael Pierce, Director Of Viticulture and Enology, Yavapai College
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Michael Pierce, a luminary in the Arizona wine scene, unveils his remarkable journey from graphic designer to influential winemaker and educator at the Southwest Wine Center.
Join us as Michael recounts his professional evolution, from his early studies in wine to his pivotal role at Arizona Stronghold. He offers a fascinating glimpse into the intricacies of the Arizona wine market, the challenges of sourcing local grapes, and the art of crafting a distinctly "Arizona" wine. With stories of global wine adventures and his current role as head winemaker, Michael illustrates how accumulated knowledge and mentorship can inspire the next generation of winemakers.
Explore the cutting-edge curriculum at Yavapai College's Southwest Wine Center, where students are immersed in practical learning experiences, from vineyard management to creative wine production and label design. The philosophy of the program emphasizes flexibility, affordability, and the importance of patience and collaboration in winemaking. Discover how this unique educational approach not only shapes skilled winemakers but also contributes to the burgeoning success of Arizona's wine industry.
In this episode, you will hear:
- Michael Pierce's transition from graphic design to winemaking and his impact on Arizona's wine industry.
- The role of education at the Southwest Wine Center and its influence on new winemakers.
- Challenges and evolution of the Arizona wine market, including local grape sourcing and defining Arizona wine.
- Curriculum and hands-on learning experiences at Yavapai College's wine program.
- Importance of practical experience in vineyard management and creative wine production.
- Michael's evolving philosophy on winemaking, emphasizing the vineyard's role and grape selection for Arizona's environment.
Resources from this Episode
https://www.yc.edu/v6/schools/cate/wine.html
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Episode Credits
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Welcome to Wineworld, the podcast that takes you from vineyard to glass. Each episode, your host Pople Milich, winemaker, restaurateur, and columnist explores wine grape growing, wine making, and wine and food pairings, focusing on Arizona and beyond. Join us as we visit vineyards, chat with restaurateurs, and meet the pioneers behind top wineries. Whether you're a wine enthusiast or curious about starting your own winery, Wineworld offers the perfect blend of education and entertainment. Pour yourself a glass and tune in to discover the stories behind the bottle.
SPEAKER_02Hello everybody and welcome back to the podcast. Today we have a very special guest, Michael Pierce, who happens to wear many hats. He's a winemaker, vineyard owner, and instructor at the Southwest Wine Center at Yavapai College here in northern Arizona. His family-owned brand, Bodega Pierce and Seculum Cellars, consistently produces well-received wines, showcasing the quality and diversity of Arizona's terroir. At my restaurant FB, his wines have always graced our list. Michael's journey in the wine world began in Flagstaff, sparked by his parents' passion for wine and fueled by his own desire for a creative outlet beyond his graphic design career. He honed his skills at UC Davis in Washington State University, immersing himself in both theory and hands-on experience. Michael's commitment to Arizona wine is evident in his dedication to educating and mentoring the next generation of winemakers at the Southwest Wine Center. He emphasizes the importance of understanding Arizona's unique terroir and encourages students to experiment with different gray varieties and winemaking techniques. We'll be talking to Michael about the evolution of the Arizona wine industry and the exciting work happening at the Southwest Wine Center. So get ready for an insightful conversation filled with passion, expertise, and a deep appreciation for the art of winemaking. If you're curious about learning how to make wine, this show is definitely right up your alley. But before we get to Michael's interview, you'll get a little snippet, a brief testimonial from Brooke Eyde of Venostash. She's a graduate from the program who exemplifies what's possible. Cheers, everyone. Tell me about your experience at the Yavapai School.
SPEAKER_01I started the program in 2014 when they were just about to install the remaining acreage of the vineyard there, and really got to have a hands-on approach to water management, installing irrigation, installing vines, really working with my hands that I wasn't getting with taking online classes with UC Davis. When I found the program, was it literally an hour and a half up the road, a 517 from me? I just committed to spending a day a week for three years doing all of the viticulture practicum hours and then taking classes at night. And then the same for the analogy component. And I felt like it really taught me the fundamentals, especially from someone like Michael Pierce and his very technical winemaking approach, to go then work for other big producers such as Merkin and Caduceus. I could walk into the cellar and be somewhat trusted right off the bat with not messing things up and being respectful of their product. Then the hands-on experience really was catapulted from that three-year program, which was a wonderful experience. I can't believe that our state has such a state-of-the-art facility that's churning out students that have a good foundational knowledge on the viticulture side as well as the analogy side. And the facility is beautiful. I mean, I got to go work in a vineyard that overlooked Sedona every day. It was incredible. And work with varietals that are specific to Arizona, which is super important.
SPEAKER_02So, Michael, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you wind up in the world of wine in Arizona to the extent that you have, which is pretty amazing from having your own brand with your family to now ostensibly being in charge of creating new generations of winemakers in the state?
SPEAKER_03Enjoying the journey, I think, truly. I got turned on to making wine through friends, making beer first. And it's like, well, this is fun. I'm going to take advantage of these opportunities. And it's almost like an outlet because I was doing graphic design. And it's like, well, I get to also create this new thing. And once you learn how vast the world of wine is, it's like can almost be a little scary because it's so big. But it's also like, man, I could get into that for quite a while just to understand things. And then I just kept with that thought of like, well, there's an opportunity here to go to school. I'm going to go to school and who knows what that's going to come about. And then in school, they told me you could travel and make wine. Who in their mid-20s doesn't want to go and do that? So I found that opportunity. And as soon as I landed that first job in New Zealand, I knew I wasn't going to go back to a desk doing graphic design. It was just so obvious.
SPEAKER_02Where were you living, my kind sir, when you first started sort of dipping your toes into the world of wine? Or what was the catalyst? Where were you? Were you here in Arizona?
SPEAKER_03I was in Flagstaff of all places, the least wine town of the state. And I still have hopes that Flagstaff's going to come around. I was living in Flagstaff, loving it. I'm a native from Phoenix. So moving up to Flagstaff was like moving away out of state. And I liked riding my bike. I like doing things and being outside, like fishing. Seems like a lifetime away now. That was already quite a long time ago. And there was a home brew scene. And but then my dad and mom had been into wine. You know, when we would go on vacation, if there was a wine place to stop, they would turn in. And my brother and I would be out in the parking lot trying to entertain ourselves where they were inside enjoying their vacation as they should. And so my dad was like, well, let's go back to school together. So he was kind of on that same journey of like, I don't know where this is going to go, but let's just have some fun along the way. What did you attend, Michael, at the beginning? But UC Davis. Okay. UC Davis was the school to go to. It was an all-wine spectator. It was, you know, you'd see it online. And it was good, very theory-based, you know, no hands-on whatsoever, because obviously it's distance. You'd buy a $250 textbook, or you'd pay a lot for the class, and you do online forums. And even back then, the online classes weren't great. And then we found out Washington State was kind of up and coming with Washington State University. They were going to develop a program, which since this time has really flourished. They have Sato Shane Michelle put a whole bunch of money behind their wine school since then. And they had an opportunity to go up to eastern Washington, work with the Vines, do a little bit of time in the cellar, which was what we wanted all along. We didn't want to just have theory-based conversations online. No, thank you. So we transferred to Washington State where we finished our school.
SPEAKER_02So this was a family affair. It was mom, dad, you was your brother involved, Michael?
SPEAKER_03No, he's on his own journey. He's in the medical profession. And I think my parents were right at the end of their first career. Actually, it's very much like the students I have now. They're all professionals, you know, 48 plus, got some sort of professional background that they can apply to the wine world. I don't care what you did, you can apply it. And so they were looking for that next project, and wine was it. But at the time, this was kind of 2005 to 2009 or so. We knew of Arizona wine. We would travel down, we'd see Kent. We'd try those wines. Some of the first wines I remember trying, there was a, he called it Backlot. That's a red that sticks out to me. There were some early whites from uh Verde Valley area that definitely stick out to me. But we didn't know of many other layers. And it didn't seem like there was the energy that eventually became. So we were thinking we were going to end up in the Pacific Northwest and we were looking for properties around there, and we would fly up there looking for vineyards and wineries to buy. And it just never quite felt right because that's not our home. You know, our home's in Arizona. And my dad actually happened to work in Washington State. He worked for a winery called Owen Row. Yeah. You've maybe seen some of their wines come through. And he really enjoyed it. But my mom's like, we live in Arizona. What are you doing up in Washington? So she pulled him back. And so we're both back in Arizona. And I had an opportunity to work at Arizona Stronghold, where I was there for four vintages.
SPEAKER_02And during that time, Tim White, the winemaker at the time, or who was heading that seller? Yeah, Tim was there the whole time.
SPEAKER_03Okay. And it was good to be a part of that evolution because Arizona Stronghold had, you know, it was, I think, the biggest production, at least at the time. And it felt right to be a part of that energy of like bringing that story out. And it felt very much that's what we were doing by making those wines and getting those bottles out there because it was a smaller industry at the time. I think that company learned a lot, learned about what fruit is available. We certainly learned a lot in the winemaking side of things. We could talk about that for quite a while. But that company learned about a lot about the market, what Arizona wine is and what Arizona wine is not. And you can't just leave the state and it's not as cool as when you're in the state and you're the local person and you're making that full local wine. So through all of that, learning all of those things, people needed to rearrange their ideas. And so some parting of ways, we'll say, happened. And at the time the college was looking for a head winemaker. So it's like, man, that sounds like a good opportunity to learn what I learned at Arizona Stronghold and go apply it to something that I wish was there when I was coming up.
SPEAKER_02Let me just go back a couple of sentences. You made a comment pertaining to at the time the whole team at Arizona Stronghold was trying to discern what Arizona wine and what is not. Can you unpack that a little bit, Michael? Oh, sure.
SPEAKER_03We had wines called Dala, which meant one. And it was Dala Chardonnay and Dalla Cabernet. I think that was born more out of a marketing effort than it was a winemaking effort. We didn't know this at the time. Those varieties aren't the best for Arizona. So if we wanted to have a brand called Arizona Stronghold and be that leader out into the market and say, this is what Arizona is all about, we might have had the wrong juice in the bottle. We were all learning there, so it's no fault to anybody as we were figuring that out. Also at the time, there was not as much fruit. So there was supplemental juice needing to come in from California just because there wasn't enough grapes. It was always the intention to make Arizona wine, but you don't have the grapes. What are you going to do? So some of the, and my dad and I were seeing those challenges too. We always wanted to make Arizona wine. We never wanted to make California wine. And the first two vintages, we bought California grapes because it's like we're winemakers. We want to enjoy this. We want to start a brand. Then when we saw a vineyard come for sale, it's like, let's get on that. Because at the time, if you wanted Arizona grapes, you grew Arizona grapes.
SPEAKER_02Who was selling the vineyard that became the family's vineyard, Michael? John Marcus is the name of the person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I never met him. He has a reputation that seems to precede him, but I never met that person. And how many acres, Michael? It's in Wilcox, the Wilcox, Kansas settlement area, kind of east of the playa. I call it the Wilcox Bench. It's a great place to grow grapes. We've got nice soil there, kind of alluvial soils. We've learned a lot about the site since then. There's spots where it's nice sandy loam, so we get super great drainage. And then there's a couple pockets specifically underneath our grenache block where it's a little bit more clay-rich. And so we've got to manage the water a little bit differently there. Elevation's great. We've been burned with frost, both fall frost and spring frost. You know, we've had all those challenges that everybody's had. But all told, Wilcox is a great place to grow grapes in Arizona. We've got well, so we've got water coming up. We've got the dirt, we've got the sunshine. And it's which you really need. So I look forward to those grapes coming in every year. We just did our 15th vintage, I guess. We've added four varieties. There's a total of 18 varieties there. And it's interesting to see how each of those have evolved as the blocks have matured. But then also how we farm things, knowing where we're going to use them. Because when you start and you don't have that frame of reference, you do the best you can. It's like, let's maybe try and emulate something and see what the result is. And then it's like, okay, we're starting to develop something that makes sense for yourself. I'll give you an example, Pinot Gris. Don't plant Pinot Gris if you're thinking of planting Pinot Gris. There's nothing good that's going to come of that. Why? We have it. Well, it's high pH for a white, which is like, why would you ever want that? Sunburn prone, a little bit of rot prone. You know, it's just like everything you wouldn't want for a white. And we have extra land to plant. So we've we've decided we're not going to pull out anything while we can still put more stuff in. And we've continued with the model. That degree, I've developed into probably our best white wine that we have by blending a small amount of Semillon Blanc and a small amount of Malvasilla Bianca. So the Semillon Blanc just kind of builds a little acid and a little bit of lift to that palate that it was otherwise missing. And then the malvasia, which you've got to be careful of because you don't want to make the wine in Malvasia, adds the aromatics. That's the wine. If I'm ever asked to do a winemaker dinner, I always like going first because I want to hit them with a good wine. And also when you go first, people are paying attention. You know, they haven't had four or five, six wines and they're not super enjoying their time with their friends. Yes, sir. I always like to start with a strong wine that makes them go, wow, that's tasty. And usually the Pandora is that one where it's just complex enough, it's balanced enough, it's not too acidic for that first wine. It's like I can make an impression with that wine. And I think with that little bit of malvasia, it's just got that Arizona character where it's like if they haven't had Arizona wines before, they start to understand what they're all about.
SPEAKER_02So, Michael, the vineyards obviously in the Kansas settlement area. I believe I went to go visit there. I want to say the last time I went was about seven years ago. And you're seven, eight years ago, your mom, I believe, was running the tasting room down there. And I actually had the dos amigos glacianos from Jenny's Vineyard, which was very delicious. I did see like a small amount of winemaking equipment, or was it just tea bins that I saw? Do you make some of the wine there or is all the wine made up north?
SPEAKER_03No, the tea bins are down there because we got to get the fruit picked. We're also thinking of selling that vineyard. And I'll tell you, if that vineyard was in the Robertie Valley, it wouldn't be for sale because it would be right here. And I could help my dad. I will answer your question, but you just got me thinking about something. My parents are starting to get old, and I think some of the folks that are around us are starting to age out. So that second wave of those folks, you know, the Sam Pillsbury's and Jim Graham's that have been around now for 20 years, they're thinking about who they pass it off to. And my dad's in that category. I live in the Verde Valley. I wish I could go and help him with weeds in the afternoon, help him pick, help him do any, you know, do a Bruna Row for him. I can't because it's four hours away. So I wish I could do some winemaking there because it really opens you up when your vineyard's right next to the winery. And I get to experience that with the college. Let's bring a bin down today to see what our bricks are at. You know, let's do a bin of carbonic macerated something just to do a bin of that for fun. Where when you're going from four hours away, it's like when you're picking that block, you're picking the whole thing. So you're getting four tons of it. And then it's for the driver's sake, who's my dad, it's a two-trip turnaround. So it'll take them a day to turn around to get back into the vineyard to get new numbers or whatever. So it's a big to-do. I wish I could be down there. I wish I could make the wine down there, but I don't live down there. So what do you think? Liberty Valley River's home. Or seculum and bodega Pierce, Michael. All in Clarkdale. We've got a great spot too. 2020 was our first vintage there. First four vintages I made at Arizona Stronghold. And the next six after that, I made at 4.8 wine works. So Maynard was nice enough to give us a little bit of incubator space. So for the first 10 vintages, we were cooking in somebody else's kitchen. And now for the last five it is, we've been in our own. So it's nice just to finally have your own place. You can put your own stuff out, have your own mess.
SPEAKER_02You know where it is, right? Yeah. I want to go back to when you were Arizona Stronghold and you mentioned that the college was looking for a winemaker. Can you please give us a little perspective pertaining to how that whole program came to be at Yavapai?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. There's a lot of people who should be thanked and listed as coming up with the idea. And it's such a good thing that a lot of people like to say I was a part of those initial days. Tom Schumacher's name needs to be there. He was the dean of the campus who really forced it and got it through the college, which is not easy to get anything through a college administration. Maynard was definitely there as a fundraiser, Paula Woolsey, Randy Garrison, Doug Bartosz. And I don't mean to leave anybody out, but there's a long list of community members here who came to the college, and they were part of the Verde Valley Wine Consortium, which is our little community group, which is still active and doing good work today. They came to the college and was like, you guys need to pay attention. There's this wine industry coming up here. There's going to be a need for jobs. There's economic development happening. Like, you should really think about this. And they said, Well, this sounds expensive. We're not going to do it until we raise a certain amount of money. And that's when the winery started to pay attention because we were asked to do winemaker dinners and do different things to help fundraise. And I was a part of some of those. And I was like, gosh, this is great. I wish this was here 10 years ago. I would have loved to have gone. So it was an evolution from I would say about 2009 to when the wine center was built, which was in 2014, where they were fundraising. And you go to the wine center today, there's the founders, which got these copper plates, and they're all large gift givers. And it's just filled with community members. A lot of the wineries have their name up on that wall. So I find people have ownership of that building because they've given their money, they've given their time to say we think this should happen. And I think that's why they want to raise their hand and say, yeah, we were a part of helping that come together. So, and that energy is still there today. I mean, it's a community space. It's not any one person's thing. A lot of people came together to make that happen.
SPEAKER_02And Michael, have you been there since its inception, since the beginning as the head winemaker, or did you come after somebody else?
SPEAKER_03No, so 2009 was when they first started offering classes. Paula Woolsey was doing some of those, and they were kind of non-credit wine tasting classes, and they were popular because they were fun. People love taking them. People take them a time and time again. But since it's a college, they always wanted to build and add on to things and eventually be what it is now, which is a full two-year associate's degree. Some of the other people, Tom Pitts taught, Nikki Check also taught. And then there was another person ahead of me in the winemaking side that thankfully for me didn't work out. He fizzled out, which was great because then I ended up with a job. So yeah, there was a handful of people there, as there are now. I'm not the only instructor. Craig Martinson, that might ring a bell. He was in the Verde Valley industry, was down in Wilcox growing grapes. He's one of our adjuncts. Justin Brereton, who's in the Merkin world, he does a lot of the horticulture stuff. He teaches our soils and water management classes. So there's all sorts of really talented people who've been around for a while. I think it's great that the students get to learn from different mindsets. They shouldn't just learn from me. I mean, with anything, growing grapes, making wine, there's so many different ways to do it. And you've got to expose yourself to those different ways. And eventually you will just pick up what you want from there and do it your own way. And I'm glad that we've got that list of people with a whole bunch of experience there to teach our students.
SPEAKER_02And this is a good segue. You kind of touched on it, but what was the approach pertaining to establishing a curriculum for an associate's degree in both winemaking and viticulture?
SPEAKER_03I guess just like working with varieties you don't know of, you go and you try and emulate somebody. So there's some other schools out there. Walla Walla Community College has something similar where it there's an industry-scale vineyard there in a licensed winery. So we took their curriculum, which is learning outcomes, which is just words on paper until you actually apply them and actually do education in the in the classroom. That helped create a framework for what that looked like. So what we have now, it's stackable certificates. So if you take your first year in viticulture and then your second year in analogy, and then you do your general education classes, you can get a full associate's degree. The other thing that we built into this is we grow a deciduous crop that's outside. The vineyard's always there, and it's always in some state of the next evolution of the process. Even when they're dormant, vines are doing something very important. And as vineyard managers, we need to be doing something to manage them. So our viticulture certificate is a year long program. So it's fall, spring, and summer. So students are almost always like in some part of that. It's not traditional, and this is part of the challenges of working with the college. They want to show up in August and do the fall semester, and then show up in January, do the spring semester, and take the summer off. And it's like, I don't know any winemaker. In the world who has that schedule. We've got to work this whole system within the college. And our students also are people who have been introduced to wine at some point in their life, but they're adults. I don't know of many 20-year-olds who are into wine. I mean, there's the exception, of course, but not many. They're adults who have had some experience. They traveled, they worked in restaurants, and their interest was peaked. So because they're adults, that also means they work. And that also means they have a life and a family and other stuff going on. So we know we want to have this year-long program where we can expose them to all of it, but it's not like they can just commit and come and be there. So another thing I added was something I saw at Washington State where we would do weekend long classes, where it'd be Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and you come in, you do an intensive thing. And then we'd spend four weeks online talking about some stuff. And then you'd come and we'd do a couple days intensive either in the vineyard or the winery. And that's been very popular.
SPEAKER_02So just adding these sort of flexible, condensed chunks within the actual semester. Is that something that's optional or is part of the curriculum, Michael? It's part of the curriculum.
SPEAKER_03We've got great learning labs. Like truly, we've got a beautiful vineyard. We've got a well-equipped winery, and you can't replicate those online as much as we'd like to. And the college is trying to do virtual reality and some other things and be innovative and be open to new technologies. But especially with technical programs, they need to go and feel what it feels like to brew in a row, to feel the sunshine, to know what it's like to farm an acre and so on. You just they need that experience. I say time and again, my students are the lucky ones because they get to have that experience before they go and buy the piece of land, which they're ready to go do day one. They'll understand that it does matter what your soil is, because they've seen our soils that aren't great and our soils that are terrif terrific.
SPEAKER_02I remember a conversation that I had with you, and this was many years ago, Michael. You mentioned something to the effect that, especially people who are looking to get into the business, they would some people have gone on to purchase a chunk of land that they eventually want to develop without knowing that there was some diligence pertaining to soil and water and all of that. What kind of preparation are your students given before they go out and actually buy some land or look for land?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, in one of the classes, our intro to viticulture class, they do a soil site assessment. So they get to pick any site they want in the world, but they usually do something local and they actually look at parcel viewer and they find an actual parcel that exists. They go do a soil sample, they take a look at the actual texture of the soil, and then they write up a report on the weather conditions, what the climate's like, and then what the water availability is. That one assignment kind of then snowballs into the next two semesters where they're developing that through the establishment that they need to learn, what type of trellising, what the expense of that is, what the timing of that implantation is. So it's an evolution. It's not any one assignment that we do. I like to say, in order to be hands-on, you got to be minds-on. So even when they're in our vineyard, there's a point of reflection where they need to discuss what it is that they see and what we do and you know what is working well. We've got vines that aren't working well for any number of reasons. The emitter got clogged, gophers got a hold of it, we got some disease. You know, if you've got 12,000 vines in a vineyard, you're gonna have some of that. So they get to see that firsthand, and then we get to talk through that and we get to reflect upon why we're having those challenges next to this other vine that's having a success. So there's a lot of those teachable moments that come up that are outside the true curriculum. That's what I mean. Sometimes curriculum is just words on paper until you actually apply it to a student and they get to reflect, and it means something to them. Until it means something to them, it's it's just how academics, you know, do their paperwork.
SPEAKER_02Talking about this hands-on experience, Michael, it's safe to assume that, for example, with both white and rose, the students will get a chance to hopefully process it, make it and taste it. And then with red wines, do you try to release a little bit sooner so they can taste the red wines? What is that approach?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, thankfully we've got several years of backlog of product. So they get all of those things. Last year, our vineyard produced 49.9 tons. We were just shy of 50. We produced about 30 tons, and then we sold some to graduates, which is great. I'm glad we're now getting to support them on their journey. I'm sorry, Michael.
SPEAKER_02The size of the vineyard, I'm sorry, how many acres?
SPEAKER_0312 acres. So our tonnage per acre, we've got Tanat, which loves to set fruit, might be four and a half to five tons. We've got to fight it to drop the fruit. To we do have some cap salved there, which, if we're lucky, we get 1.8 tons per acre. So it depends on the variety, but across those 12 acres, we're right about 50, 50 tons. Of those 30 tons, we will make probably about 20 unique wines. And we don't have a house style. Every year we've got a new group of students that that come in. They get to bring some ideas. They have some wines that they've tried and they've liked, and we get to talk through that and we get to work on those. So that also is the story of Arizona wine. It's diversity, it's not any one thing. And that was another reason why my dad and I wanted to be back here. It's like we don't want to go and you know, go to Oregon, and it's like you get to do Pinot and maybe a little bit of Riesling and Chardonnay, and that's all you can do. So, students do white white wines, for example, our vigonier, which was always the first to come off. This year we did some in stainless, we did some in concrete, and then we did some in neutral barrel that we put through MLF. And now we have three different expressions of a grape picked on the same day, and the students get to see all of this that you would guess are almost different varieties because they just the treatment creates such a different what we're gonna do with those, we still haven't determined it, because it's it's just November now. So now that they're stable and in tank or barrel, we need to go back through, taste them, see what the highlights are. If there's some highlights there, we're gonna showcase it on its own. But then we need to go through the process of doing blending trials. We can have an idea of what our blending trials are, but until you put it into a glass, you don't know. You know, you just kind of have to work through that process. So we do that as a group, and we've got our 12 varieties out in front of us, and then different treatments of them. They will put forward a blend for both their reds, the roses, and the whites, and then we'll taste them blind and we do relative ranking scoring. So they're scoring them, not knowing if it's their own wine or not. Our goal is always to make the best wine possible. And you can imagine how excited the students are when their wine gets selective across the whole group that it's their wine. And then another very important part of this process, not only are we going to produce that on a you know large scale and it's gonna be going to our wine club, they need to do the label for it and do the tasting notes and you know, all of that. Name the wine, which comes to our next conversation of, you know, is it a varietal naming? Is it a some sort of a name you come up with? Things like Cabernet Sauvignon, for example, we have that, but it's not typical. So we've had students who want to name a CAPSAP, but now we need to have the conversation. Are we disappointing people? Are we showcasing them what Cabernet Sauvignon is? Or do we think the wine is actually good on its own for some other purpose and we want to call it a proprietary name, which we've done before, and people love it. I mean, it's kind of crazy the psychology of that sometimes, where it's like, if you tell me it's cab salve, my expectations are I'm gonna judge it based on my expectations.
SPEAKER_02I remember one of the, I don't want to say a surprise, but it was really great news with the Arizona Republic annual competition. Correct me, please, if I'm wrong, Michael. I believe it was a San Jovese Rosse in Amphora, maybe. But you guys took Besting Show that year. I don't remember when, but I I still remember it was maybe, I don't know, four or five years ago. Was that also the same exercise that was somebody specific wine that won?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Before I went to there, somebody's name, yeah, somebody's name's on the back of that bottle. We'd have to look up which one it was. That was a handful of years ago. That's a cool story. So, and the student chose to call it amphoria because we fermented it in an amphora. Now, not only was this an amphora, it was one that Tom Schumacher threw on the wheel. So he was the dean that I was referring to before, and he's a ceramic artist, a really accomplished ceramic artist. He's doing it, done it for 40 years. He creates really incredible things. He actually went out into our vineyard and harvested some clay. And he did that by taking the dirt, and you know, clay is only a certain portion of that dirt. Surted it up in water, you get it to settle out, and the clay goes to the bottom. But it's not full clay. Took the heavier stuff off the top, settled it out again, took the heavier stuff off the top, settled it out again to refine some clay from the vineyard, and then he mixed that in with the stuff that he threw for this amphora. So the vessel was actually created, at least in part, from the clay in the vineyard that the fruit was grown in. And that was the wine that we won best in show of. Yeah, that's this beautiful Pamphora that's at the taste room. If anybody wants to stop by and see it.
SPEAKER_02Michael, when it comes to the label design, parameters pertaining to colas, the TTB, that's also part of the of the learning curve.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's our summer class. And that is the class that opens students' minds the most. They know when they come, they're going to learn about different varieties, different yeast types, different barrels, how to blend. I mean, they they could guess they were going to learn all that. They're blown away when they start to take a look at the world of wine and what three-tiered distribution means, who's at what place. Then they, when they walk into an establishment, they look at what license type's on the wall so they can see what their privilege is and what their privilege is not. They read, they're a little bit more discerning now when they look at a bottle of wine and they know those things that are on there have to mean certain things. Also, when they so they actually create the labels themselves and they do the write-up. Commonly, I'll send the to the TTB exactly how they how it was written. Commonly, something comes back and it's a foul. Usually they infer where it was from, you know, the base of base of the Mingus Mountain or something like that. TTB doesn't allow for that because it's like, where is the Mingus Mountain? And it's just one of those things that that's a teachable moment that you wouldn't know how to do until you let them go through that exercise. You can't say this is a Bordeaux blend or something. You say it's a Bordeaux-style blend, but like those things matter. You need to be very truthful. And if anything, I think it kind of makes us better to describe our wines and to be more true to the place. The beauty of the AVA is it's about a place name. It is specific. The Birdie Valley AVA is this very specific area. It's distinguishingly different. And anything outside that is not from there. The wines are not going to be representative of that place. And I'm glad we finally got that established. That took a long time to get going in the Birdie Valley.
SPEAKER_02One of my, I don't want to say least favorite, but kind of tedious tasks that we have to do at the winery, as you know, is at the end of the year is the report for the feds. You as a school, are you also beholding to the same parameters for the sake of reporting? And you you fill out the same forms? Yep.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's nothing on the federal level or the state level. There are some states that have uh Texas is an example where you can actually do a wine tasting class for people under the age of 21, and the state legislature is allowed for that in Texas. We tried to do that because we now have a craft distilling license with the state, and we've been doing some spirits at the wine center. And we asked the director in writing, and they said, no, if you're profiting from the sale of alcohol, and this is specifically in Title IV, you have to be licensed to do that. Even if it's we're going to teach a class on craft distilling and we're not going to sell distilled spirits, you're profiting on those distilled spirits. That was their interpretation. So we got a license, but it forced us to do that, and that's okay, because now that we have the license, we get to sell it.
SPEAKER_02So, Michael, the Southwest Wine Center, winemaking facility for the students, you have 12 acres under vine. Additionally, you have a tasting room that's open to the public.
SPEAKER_03Four days a week, Thursday to Sunday. It's quaint, which means it's small, but that also means make an appointment. But when you make an appointment, this is something that came out of COVID was you know, we wanted a social distance and whatever. So we created an appointment system. Now we love it, and our customers love it because you've got your own table and our staff, which is all either graduates or current students, they take good care of you, and you're not in there with a mob of people. So it's like a nice quiet place. We've got a million-dollar view. You look out and see Sedona and you see our vineyard. And yeah, we need to expand it at some point.
SPEAKER_02But right now it's great how intimate it is. Are there any interesting comments that you hear the tasting room? Are people surprised? Because I've been to the facility and it's beautiful. It's I love it. And also performing tastings in my winery. I hear people, you know, always comment when, you know, they're so terribly surprised. So I'm wondering what your experience is there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, some people set that low bar for us. You know, it's like, oh, it's gonna be student wine or something like that. It's such a low bar that it's so easy to jump over. We've got a beautiful vineyard and we've got a fully equipped winery, and we've got students who care. We're gonna make good wine. Like we've got all the pieces there. So now we just need to put them together. So, and wine is is not only about the quality product that's in the bottle, it's about the experience you have when you have, you know, the people you're with, all of those things. So we've got that package. Not only do they get to taste something that's enjoyable, they look out and they see the vineyard that was growing in and this beautiful mountain, and the sunsets there, and it's like that doesn't last very long if they come in thinking, oh, we'll just go to this student produce one. They end up staying for quite a while. Do you offer food, Michael, at the tasting room? No, we don't. That's another thing that it'd be nice if we could, but we just don't have the space. You ever play racquetball? This was a racquetball court. That's how exactly how big they are. Well, how many racquetball courts?
SPEAKER_02There's four, but only one of them is the tasting room. Okay, that's fair enough. That definitely gives me some sense of the scale. Michael, if someone wants to attend your school, it is a two-year commitment, correct?
SPEAKER_03It is, but they do not have to be a full-time student. Most of our students transfer in credits because of who they are. They they have other so the general ed classes, almost none of our students take that. They take the viticulture and analogy classes. Also, it's not uncommon for them to take three to four years to do the two-year degree, which I'm fine with. We're not trying to rush them out of there. And if they can only take one class at a time, let it be a journey. I think you know the grape growing's a journey. It's just going to take time. And so hopefully they're in that frame of mind of I'm going to slowly work towards this place I want to be. We're not running anywhere with wine. We're slowly getting there and we're making small incremental steps. And I think that's true with students just as much as it is with the industry.
SPEAKER_02Michael, what is the rough estimate to get the certification in both viticulture and analogy for a resident of the state of Arizona? About $4,000 for a two-year degree.
SPEAKER_03Very, very affordable. Pretty amazing. Yeah. And there's uh scholarships unique to our program. And some of those scholarships, I'm very proud of this fact, are funded by graduates of the program. So they've gone through it, they've given back to make sure it's easy for people to go through. And they're not based on financial need. So what I'm saying is everybody qualifies. No matter what student, potential student I'm talking to, I always say apply for scholarships. There's free money out there. Make sure it's easy and comfortable to go through. And that's a goal of Yavapai College as a two-year school. It's like we're there to have an attainable education for people.
SPEAKER_02Michael, over the last you said 15 years now, you've been there, Michael?
SPEAKER_03No, uh Yavap Pie College in January will be 11 years. 15 vintages for our personal brand.
SPEAKER_02Can you give us from the point of view of a proud instructor, a specific case of one or two of your graduates that you're pretty tickled by what they've done after they they took your course?
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. There's more than one or two for sure. Brooke I, we just took some students down uh when we went to Los Milix last weekend, and we had a packed weekend of just going to graduates. We went to Brooke's place, and she's the real deal. I mean, she's there doing it all by herself. I mean, she's responsible for all of that. Built all the winery, he's got a branch, making good wines, telling a good story, which is important. We also went over to Altam Messier, who works with James Callahan with Deep Sky. Same thing. His wines are fantastic. And he's plugged himself into the industry and is helping other people out. He's helping Custom Crush. And it's like, yeah, that's what we need. He's helping other people grow. And he's got the right temperament for it. It's great to see our people out there.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about that comment you just made temperament. Having the right temperament for it. What does that mean, Michael?
SPEAKER_03You're gonna have long days and you're gonna have low blood sugar days where if you've got to just you gotta want it enough to where you're not gonna blow your top too bad. I think that we're allowed to do that once during harvest, but to enjoy the work to where you're happy to tell people the story again, to be open to sharing with others. It's silly the idea to me that there's any secrets, really. We're doing a craft that people have been doing for thousands of years. So we should just be open books to one another because we're all still learning. And there are people who choose not to have that temperament and you know, try and be closed with their sharing of ideas. And I think we're too small of an industry. So Tom definitely has that. I see a lot of the folks up here in the Verde Valley are starting to have that too. And it's it's a lot better than it used to be. I think now that we have more years under our belt, we maybe are a little bit more secure with what we know and what we don't know. And I think that only comes with maturity. I remember Kent Callaghan saying years ago, as soon as you say that you know what you're talking about, you'll be proved wrong, you know, by Mother Nature. Like it will happen. But don't ever say that out loud. Motherfucker.
SPEAKER_02After now having 11 years of obviously, I don't want to use the word in force, but you know, trying to use this curriculum to teach. And also through the revolving door of the school, you get a chance to be stimulated by new people, you know, with new ideas. And obviously, you did mention how irrespective of what you did before, there's something you can leverage in the wine world. I'm curious if from the moment that you started making wine, Michael, now that you have quite a few vintages under your belt, were there some heuristics or axioms at the beginning about winemaking that now, with some perspective, you can say you've changed your mind on. What are some morsels that you can give us?
SPEAKER_03I started as a winemaker. I loved making wine. That's what got me into it. I wanted to craft this thing. The more I'm into it, I just think about the vineyard. I mean, really, the chemistry from the vine, the vine is what's creating what's going to be in the bottle. The winemaker just uses a little bit of microbiology to manipulate it and turn it from grape juice into wine. But if we want something good in the bottle, we've got to get the grapevine to create that chemistry. And the longer I do this, the more like that is the heart of what I'm trying to do, even as a winemaker. It's like, yeah, I'm trying to shepherd that through. But we need to plant varieties and grow them in ways that really make sense. And even though we can get away with growing all these varieties in Arizona, we need to be honest about the ones that don't work and pull them out, which is kind of hard to do when you've got a mature vineyard. I don't know if that directly answered your question.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, no, but fair to say that you went from having a huge emphasis on obviously making correct wines, making clean wines, to now having more of an emphasis on provenance and the quality of the fruit, obviously. Having said that, for the sake of the conversation, the top three grapes that you love in Arizona that you know for sure should stay here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Agulianico, Barbera, Graciano for reds. Great acid, great concentration. Those are at least specifically with the Agulianico and the Graciano can be kind of serious wines that need some time. A year or two in barrel, they're still clunky, five years, and they're exceptional. And I think that's what people want to see from Arizona. And all three of those varieties, too. I love picking them because when they come in, I don't need to adjust them. They're ripe, the acid's there. It's like, oh my gosh, this is great. This is what we've been looking for. And people are starting to gravitate towards those, I think. Also, I'm not gonna get behind the natural wine thing, but kind of the native fermentation and allowing some biodiversity in your ferments, allowing for some of those other complexities. I guess your your previous question is what were some of the things that I was taught in school or some of those, you know, things that were supposed to be fundamental. Things like pH, those textbooks that were written in California, they don't apply here. I mean, we're we just got a different we just got a different world here. We will have Temper Neo does great. People love Arizona Temper Neo. It does good in the vineyard. You can tell it does good in the vineyard. For us, every year it's high pH. That's just the variety. That's what it's gonna give you. So if I were to go off of what the textbook would tell me, they would say bottling at pH of four is the worst thing you'd ever do, and you're gonna be a you know unsuccessful winemaker. However, if I acidulate and add force it and add acid, it's gonna be clunky, it's not gonna be balanced. And yes, I can get it to three seven, but the wine's not gonna be good. So Arizona Tempranillo at four, it's great, you know.
SPEAKER_02Have you made any concessions, perhaps, to?
SPEAKER_03picking a little bit earlier to maybe have a lower pH or you pick mainly on on bricks Michael specifically to temper new I would say we're a less ripe especially with our family vineyard we prefer less ripe lower alcohol higher acid more food friendly take a little bit longer to evolve but also that's okay too so that's always been our approach.
SPEAKER_02So Michael to be able to attend Yavapie for the certification can you just go to the school and just take that certification without can you audit those classes or do you still need to go through the regular sort of avenues of you know being admitted into a college and all of that?
SPEAKER_03It's a community college so everybody's welcome. You do have to apply for admission but everybody's welcome. You can't just come sit in you got to be on the roster. So you got to sign up but you can take it past fail, which we have a lot of students do. What I find is when students come thinking that's what they're going to do, they also think I just want to take some viticulture classes or something. And then they get in and they start talking to the other students and they're like no I want to take the whole program because I see they're doing this over there. And then they take that and they're like well I want to see where this these grapes are going. I'm taking the winemaking side of things. That's almost always the case. They come in thinking they just want a little bite-sized piece and they're like oh no this is pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02I want all of it. Remind me in addition to the different requirements on site do you guys still require the students to do I believe you called them practicums off site or working for other people as part of the requirements for getting the certificate?
SPEAKER_03So both viticulture and analogy they have to do three practicums and each practicum 60 hours. So to do a viticulture certificate you've got to do 180 hours in the vineyard. However we've got a vineyard and our hope is that they do most of their hours with us but if they're in southern Arizona they also have an opportunity to go see other people. So they're not only allowed to but they're encouraged to go out and do that in the industry. However they've got a location at the college to do 100% of their hours. It just depends we're in the Verde Valley we're at the geographic center of the state but that's a long way for people to go. I tell you when COVID happened we were actually in a great spot because we were already dealing with students at a distance we were already doing as much as we could online and making it as attainable as possible. And yeah if you're in southern Arizona here's some context here's who how you can get that piece of the program done.
SPEAKER_02Amazing let's just go ahead and get ready Michael to land this plane I want to go back and briefly talk about Secculum and Bodega Pierce. Both those wines are now made in your own facilities up north correct so and seculum is sort of the boutiquey side of of what you guys do at Bodega Pierce two different brands what's the approach to both yeah so seculum is my winemakers project.
SPEAKER_03So if I want to do something maybe source some fruit do something I haven't normally done I'll do it in that label. And that was our first label that we started before we had the vineyard. So that was the whole idea is it could be a revolving door and I could do whatever I want one barrel, two barrels. And once we had a vineyard and we wanted to get a brand out there and we also wanted to get into distribution we wanted some stability too. You can't just do whatever the heck you want and have a successful business. So we chose to use Bodega Peers to have the Chardonnay and to have pizzera in our Italian blend emotiva you know so every year we will do those so that way our distributor has access to them and they're done in a scale that makes sense for that business model.
SPEAKER_02Well I will tell you now Michael that over the years or at least for the past 15 I have carried your wines and they're always very well received. So thank you for what you do and adding to the conversation Michael I also want to thank you for your work at Yava Pie. I do get a chance to talk about you through people like Brooke and people who have graduated and they're all immensely grateful that they took the program and it's really cool to see now the the fruits of the labor per se of what that program is doing to the state. Is there anything else Michael you want to add that I haven't thought of as a little closing gesture here?
SPEAKER_03No, thank you. Your restaurant's that place where a winemaker is so proud to have their wine in to have it in that place having you out front talking about it who knows about it and then the food that's like where my wife and I want to go we had actually our one of our first dates there that much longer if you remember we went to New York we were pouring for the James First Award dinner. Yeah all of our wines there and so I have just great memories of you and Charlene's food.
SPEAKER_02The last time I was there there was this carrot dish who knew you could make carrots like just spectacular but she can I mean yeah she is so Charlene is is mostly vegetarian she does taste all the food but she had a hand cream for buffalo wings and she decided to get all those flavors through carrots. I don't want to make this too much about FMB thank you for the shameless plug by the way I love it Michael once again thank you I appreciate your time and let's just hope that the story continues because for me for the last 15 years of watching this industry through the lens of carrying the wines at the restaurant and now as a winemaker it's incredible to see Michael the evolution of this industry. It really is so I thank you once again and until next time until I see you next Michael thank you Pablo and that brings us to the end of the show. But before we say ciao ciao I wanted to let you know that if there are any questions about winemaking you'd like me to tackle on the pod, don't hesitate to email me at psst at pavlamilic.com that's P S T at Pavlamilic.com. Also if you dug the content and you know someone who would get value from it please share it. And lastly if you have been enjoying the show head on over to wherever you listen leave us a review and subscribe until next time this is your host Pablo Millicra