Wine World

014: Greg Gonnerman of Laramita Cellars Talks About Pinot Noir and his 'Force-Crop' Technique

• Pavle Milic • Episode 14

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In this episode, we delve into the remarkable journey of Greg Gonnerman, the visionary behind Laramita Cellars. Join us as Greg shares his inspiring transition from a home winemaker to a prominent figure in Arizona's burgeoning wine industry. Discover how his passion for viticulture and innovative techniques, such as force-cropping, have enabled him to successfully produce Pinot Noir in the challenging climate of Arizona.

Greg's story is one of resilience and collaboration, as he recounts his partnership with Rob Hamelman of Sand Reckoner and the strategic decisions that have shaped Laramita Cellars. We explore the standout varietals that thrive under his care, including the floral Viognier and vibrant Sangiovese, while also delving into the challenges of cultivating Primitivo.

Throughout the episode, Greg offers insights into the logistics and distribution of his wines, revealing his hands-on approach to reaching consumers and local restaurants. He also provides a local's guide to the best accommodations and dining spots in the Wilcox wine region, enhancing the experience for wine enthusiasts visiting the area.

In this episode, you will hear:

  • Greg Gonnerman's innovative approach to producing Pinot Noir using force cropping techniques at Laramita Cellars.
  • Challenges and successes in Arizona's wine industry, including late spring frosts and grape varietal performance.
  • Exploration of the role of tourism in supporting Arizona's growing wine industry and local economy.
  • Overview of sustainable practices being implemented by Arizona winemakers to adapt to climate change.
  • Greg's collaboration with Rob Hamelman and the logistics of distributing Laramita Cellars wines.
  • In-depth discussion on Pinot Noir production in Arizona's climate and the evolution of the state's wine industry.

Resources from this Episode

https://www.laramitacellars.com

http://www.fnbrestaurant.com

https://losmilicsvineyards.com

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Episode Credits

If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know we sent you.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Wine World, the podcast that takes you from vineyard to glass. Each episode, your host, pavle Milic, winemaker, restaurateur and columnist, explores wine grape growing, wine making and wine and food pairings, focusing on Arizona and beyond. Join us as we visit vineyards, chat with restaurateurs and meet the pioneers behind top wineries. Whether you're a wine enthusiast or curious about starting your own winery, wine World offers the perfect blend of education and entertainment. Pour yourself a glass and tune in to discover the stories behind the bottle.

Speaker 2:

A couple of weeks ago, I was at Los Milix Tasting Room down in Elgin chatting with some guests who knew I write about Arizona wine for Phoenix Magazine. They were curious about the grape varietals we grow here and why we choose them. I shared that. Before we planted our vineyard back in 2018, I reached out to a few experts people like Ken Callaghan from Callaghan Vineyards and Todd Bostock from Dos Cabezas asking for their advice on what to plant and, just as importantly, what to avoid. My goal was simple to make sure the grapes we put in the ground were well suited to our terroir. Those conversations were incredibly helpful and I'm grateful for their generosity. I mean, honestly, I stand on their shoulders when it comes to understanding what works here. One of the varietals I mentioned was Petit Minsang, a grape from the southwest of France that's known for its ability to retain acidity, which has been fantastic for us. I also talked about Petit Verdot, which, in terms of style, is very similar to its California counterparts. We also grow Marsan, malvasia, bianca, grenache and a few others. When the conversation turned to Pinot Noir, which they love, I explained that it's not a varietal that's widely grown here in Arizona, because it doesn't always thrive in our climate. There are a few producers like Michael Pierce of Bodega Pierce and Eric Lumsky of Page Spring Cellars who make small amounts of it, but it's more of an outlier grape compared to something like Grenache, which I believe is much better suited to our region.

Speaker 2:

That said, I told them about a producer here who is having success with Pinot Noir using a technique called force cropping Enter Greg Gunnerman. Greg is the founder of La Ramita Cellars and in this episode he shares the story of how his winery came to be. He'll also explain how forest cropping works and how it's helping him produce Pinot Noir in Arizona. And here's a fun fact Greg is actually partly responsible for our Vermentino plantings at Los Milics. Ralph Hamelman of San Breckner actually suggested Greg plant it. Early on I had a bottle of Ralph's Vermentino made with grapes from Greg's Vineyard and it was phenomenal.

Speaker 2:

If you're intrigued by Greg's Arizona Pinot Noir, make sure to check it out next time you're at F&B yeah, shameless plug, best little gin joint in town, where it's obviously on our wine list. Or you can reach out to Greg directly. I'll leave his contact information in the show notes and you can schedule a taste in a lot of meat to sellers. Anyways, without further ado, let's dive into the conversation with Greg. So, greg, first and foremost, thank you so much for doing this. Let's start from the top. Tell us where you're originally from, greg.

Speaker 3:

Well, I was born and raised in Northeast Missouri. I grew up on a farm. Farming didn't hold much interest for me. When I decided to leave Missouri for Arizona to study technology, my grandmother said maybe one day you'll decide you want to get back into farming. I said no, that'll never happen, but it did, I guess in some fashion. I went to school here in Arizona. I spent five years in California and couldn't wait to get back to Arizona. Arizona really has been my home most of my life. At this point it's a great place to be.

Speaker 2:

Greg, what did you?

Speaker 3:

go to school for Electronics technology. I studied at DeVry, here in Phoenix.

Speaker 2:

And are you still involved in that industry? My kind sir A little bit.

Speaker 3:

I do a little bit of contract work. I do some tech writing and requirements management on a contractual basis. As much as I love being in the wine industry, there's not as much money in this business as people like to imagine, so I have to do a little something extra on the side to keep my boat afloat.

Speaker 2:

Let's talk about your first sort of foray into the world of wine. When were you bit by the wine bug?

Speaker 3:

Well, I've always had a fascination with wine. I've always been fascinated with the place that wine held in culture and religion and history. But that really didn't translate into a passion for wine until about 2005. I started attending wine tastings at a small shop in Scottsdale, az Wine Company. They were doing once or twice weekly wine tastings back then around 2005, 2006. And I really got into it. I learned so much about wine from my fellow wine drinkers and from the distributors and winemakers that were pouring the wine, and in a matter of months I decided to try my hand at winemaking. And that first small batch of wine I'm not terribly embarrassed to admit that first small batch was made from Welch's Concord Concentrate. I finished it as a sweet wine and for what it was, it was pretty good A family that liked it.

Speaker 3:

Inspired by that success, I tried making wine from a variety of different fruits and grape concentrates and by 2012, this had gotten to the place where every closet in my home had carboys and small barrels in it. It had really gotten out of control and friends of mine asked me why wasn't doing this as a business and I said it's too much work, too much worry, too much bureaucracy. I didn't want to get into it and, at the end of the day, though, I really wasn't happy with those answers. So I decided to go ahead and try my hand at winemaking try my hand at commercial winemaking. So, late mid-2012, I spent nearly four months looking for the property it would become my vineyard.

Speaker 3:

My vineyard is known as Chirica Ranch Vineyards. It was the result of a four-month search, primarily in the Wilcox area. I considered briefly Senoid and Elgin. I considered the Verde Valley, but ruled those areas out for a variety of reasons. I wanted to do a proper vineyard, a real commercial vineyard. I was concerned about some of the issues with late spring frost in other areas and land costs up north, and I felt like I could do the project I wanted to do in Wilcox.

Speaker 2:

So that's why I ended up While you were performing research, Greg, pertaining to looking for land, or I mean gosh, pertaining to how do I even start? I mean, it's one thing I gather was Todd Sawyer from Atlas doing the tasting at AC Wine Company, or was it just people?

Speaker 3:

Todd was involved. Here's one thing I failed to mention. As I was making wine in my home, I was actually also growing some grapes in my backyard here in Mesa and when I ran out of room in my tiny backyard I planted vines in a friend's yard in Queen Creek and then I planted a few more vines at a relative's yard in Far East Mesa and I had a rudimentary idea. I realized that I would need to scale up dramatically to do a proper commercial vineyard. But as far as planting vines and growing grapes, I kind of felt like I could do that.

Speaker 3:

The uncertainty lied in the legalities of starting a winery and the practical and log'm thinking. I got a lot of stuff to learn here. I got a lot of stuff to figure out. I'm not sure how I'm going to do this, but I'm confident that I will figure out how to do it. And you know, nobody is entirely responsible for their own success. And as I got started I relied on a lot of people around me for advice and consultation and everything from how to file the paperwork for the winery for the state, how to do that for the feds, what reporting was required, how do you hire employees, how do you keep everything legal with the employees, and it was a tremendous learning experience. But I just found people around me that knew how to do these things and I got good advice.

Speaker 2:

What were some parameters? And I guess where I was going to with the question that I was asking was obviously you were rubbing elbows with people who were in the wine world in terms of tasting. But from take that frog sleeve, from from being an aficionado and having planted a few vines here and there, to actually buying the land, greg, and do it in obviously in a larger scale, that's a hell of a jump. So a couple of questions. Number one how were you able to ascertain sort of the viability of the actual piece of land that you bought and who helped you out with that? And then from there, how did you go to sort of the rigmarole of water and grape selection? Who were some influential people there that helped you along the?

Speaker 3:

way. That's a great question, so my biggest concern with the property was the late spring frost. Now, at that time, the location that I was most seriously considering the location that would become my vineyard site was three and a half miles from the nearest vineyard. My biggest concern was am I going to be more prone to those late spring frosts? I had people I've been asking in the neighborhood asking about late spring frost. I had people telling me, being 250 foot higher in elevation, the site was less prone to late spring frost. I had people telling me that was more prone.

Speaker 3:

At the end, though, I kicked around there in the dirt and I knew that the sandy, loamy soil that we had there at that site would be an excellent place to grow grapes, and I was going to take a chance. I had to take a chance on it because I needed to make a decision. I couldn't wait to evaluate the site over the course of a year. I was a fantastic place in every other regard, so I went ahead and bought it. I try not to pay too much for thinking that I wouldn't plant in the first year. I would not plant in 2013. So I did two things. One thing I did was I put temperature sensors on my property as soon as I closed and at Sam Pillsbury's place and down at Zarpara, and what I found is down the hill, once I got the data back after a couple of weeks, they get a blast of cold air right before sunrise, and we never get that up where I'm at. So on a typical night they're one or two degrees colder than I am, and once a week on average they get a blast of cold air before sunrise. We never get that. At least we never got that as I was watching this temperature data over the course of a year. So if they can grow grapes, I can grow grapes. So within just two to three weeks after purchasing the property I was already buying, already putting contracts in place to buy some vines just two acres that we planted well, two and a half or three acres that first year 2013. Acres that we planted well, two and a half or three acres that first year 2013. And the varieties I planted.

Speaker 3:

I reached out to people in the business and asked if you're going to plant vines, what would you plant? If you're going to buy grapes, what would you buy? Because I was thinking of selling grapes wholesale as sort of a nice little secondary side business. I checked with people like Ken Callaghan, sam Pillsbury, rob Hamelman and I got advice like from Kent. Sam Pillsbury recommended Roussan and Marsan and Vionier Vionier was already on my radar Rob Hamelman suggested Vermentino and I may have gotten a few other recommendations from others.

Speaker 3:

But I also had my own thoughts about what I needed to plant, so that first year I planted tiny blocks just quarter acre blocks of Timon Song, tempranillo, vermontino, merlot, marsan, sangiovese, cabernet, sauvignon and a little bit of Roussanne. And we continued planting the next year with a lot more Roussanne, chardonnay, syrah, two clones of Syrah Primitivo, derive, vionier. And each year we plant a little bit more and we're pushing ahead to trying to finish a 32 acre, a big expansion putting in 32 to 33 acres on the 40 acre parcel. As you know, there's a current line AMA discussion in the area which could derail that. But we've already made a substantial. I've made a substantial investment towards agriculture and I'm cautiously optimistic I'll be allowed to complete that vineyard expansion.

Speaker 2:

Let's talk about water and Wilcox. Yeah, so you brought up the AMA.

Speaker 3:

For people that may not know what that means Exactly, so Arizona law, which was on this topic, was written in the early 1980s, I believe. In the early 1980s they recognized that the aquifers were diminishing greatly. They had to put some restrictions in place and at that time nobody could imagine low water use agriculture. At that time, you're either using a lot of water to grow crops like corn and cotton and alfalfa, or you're not doing agriculture at all. Because of that, in Arizona, areas fall into one of three categories it's either the wild west pump as much water as you want for any purpose you want. Or it's an active management area, which is an area where there's no new agriculture and those that are using water may be required to reduce their consumption over time. And an irrigation non-expansion area, which is an area where there's just no new agriculture but no demand to reduce water use. Unfortunately, because, well, grapes use very little water a tiny fraction of the amount of water these other crops use and there really needs to be a fourth option which would allow those who want to invest low water use crops like grapes, other berries, pistachios, pomegranates there's a number of crops that could be grown that use in the area that use very little water. There is no category for that. So when they talk about implementing restrictions, then that affects grapes along with everybody else. Now why would they implement these restrictions?

Speaker 3:

Unfortunately I'm not going to name names, but there are some very large agricultural interests in the Wilcox area that are pumping tremendous volumes of water, pump crops that just don't belong in that area, crops that we just don't have.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, they can be grown right now in the short term, but it's not a sustainable thing because they're drawing down the aquifer too much Up prime at. We're slightly buffered from those dramatic water losses because I'm surrounded by foothills of the Chiricahuas and Dos Cabezas Mountains, but down the hill from me I understand that there's some residential users and some grape growers are seeing their water table drop six to nine feet per year Up prime that we're losing maybe six to nine inches per year. So it's not. The water situation isn't a crisis for me. It is, in a broader scheme though, a bit of an issue and changes have to be made. We have to discourage those high water use crops, gradually cut them back not necessarily phase them out, but cut them back, and there's no reason we couldn't have low water use agriculture, a massive expansion of agriculture in the area, if we just had better legislation, better laws in place.

Speaker 2:

Greg for someone that is curious about purchasing land and they want to figure out this whole idea of do I have water, do I not have water? What did you have to do when you purchased your land? Did you already have a well or did you have to do due diligence in that regard?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So the first question is do you have enough water? And one of the things that attracted me to this property was it already had a well and I knew I could get started immediately. It had electricity to the property. Actually, on the property it had a well. It had a well, it had a septic, it had a cargo container for storage. I knew I'd be able to immediately set up and start growing grapes and, yes, the soil fantastic grapes. I thought it'd be an excellent site for grapes. But the practical aspects were also important. So I had a well.

Speaker 3:

Then I did some research. I made sure that there were no issues. Everybody told me this area was not in an active management area, it was not an irrigation non-expansion area. But I did check with the Department of Water Resources. I had the well legally converted from a residential well to an agricultural well. I just filed a form to do that. And the quality of the water is also important. I had the water tested Around the Wilcox area. In fact, around Arizona you'll find some wildly different test results for irrigation water and some areas have too much salt, some areas like north of Wilcox.

Speaker 3:

I've talked to people whose groundwater is so hot it can't be immediately used for irrigation. They have to pump it into a cooling pond and then pump it out of the cooling. Yeah, because it comes out of the ground way too hot for that. So is the quality of the water sufficient? Is the quantity sufficient? Are you legally allowed to use the water for agriculture? One area of confusion is I've talked to people who were looking at property in irrigation, non-expansion or active management areas who thought because their property had a well, they'd be able to engage in agriculture. And that's not the case. Even if you have an agricultural well, if there's no agriculture happening on that property, if you haven't been grandfathered in, then you can't plant. You can't plant more than a couple of acres and the garden can be whatever you want it to be. It could be two acres of vines, but there's only so much you can do with two acres of vines.

Speaker 2:

Let's go back to, I believe you mentioned. 2013 is when you first planted, or 2012?

Speaker 3:

2013. I bought the property in 12 and planted my first vines in 13.

Speaker 2:

Obviously, you didn't see yields until, let's say, proper years into 2015. When it came time to making the wine, greg, you have indicated that you dipped your toes in some home winemaking, but now that you had a little more juice did you reach out to anyone in the industry to proverbially hold your hand for a bit?

Speaker 3:

Well, so yeah. So 2015 was the first year of harvest, first yield, and I was not ready to kick off the winery at that point, so I sold all that fruit. Fortunately, demand was extremely strong. I had no problem selling all that fruit, and since then I've continued to sell each year some fruit to other winemakers. So as we kicked off the winery in 2016, I did not have my winery structure complete. I was still working full time at the time and I knew that I would need to work full time for a while. So I had to find somebody to work with me, and I talked to Rob and Sarah Hamelman, and what was intended to be a short-term, two to three-year working relationship with Rob has turned into something much longer term. To this day, I'm still collaborating with him on winemaking. We're using his facility and Wilcox to make the wine. I make the big decisions, I pick out the cooperage, the yeast, I determine the blends, I grow all my own grapes, but at the end of the day, though he is my winemaker, he's handling day-to-day winemaking responsibilities.

Speaker 2:

And for those folks that may or may not recognize the name, rob Hamelman, he is the Rob Hamelman of Sandbrekner, after having planted the grapes that you planted, greg. Rob Hammelman of Sand Reckoner, after having planted the grapes that you planted, greg. And obviously what's on the ground is based on feedback from people whose shoulders you stand on per se. What have you found that you're most happy with? When we look at Arizona's agriculture in grapes through the lens of sustenance, what's thriving on your site?

Speaker 3:

I tell you varieties that I'm most impressed with as to how they are in the glass. Viognier is an absolute rock star. It's just lovely. In the vineyard it produces these wonderfully floral white wines and I put an Arizona Viognier up against anything coming out of France or California. I think Viognier does especially well among the whites in Arizona.

Speaker 3:

Patimon Sang I love because it maintains such wonderful acidity. It can be a challenging variety to work with. In that regard, as a blender it's fantastic. And Ken Callaghan has been buying my Patimon Song since the very beginning and he knows how to make a wonderfully balanced Patimon Song. He has been naming Greggs after me, which is awesome. Ken's a real stand-up guy.

Speaker 3:

And as far as the red Sangiovese, I think Sangiovese is happier in Arizona than it is in Italy and I'm going to offend an Italian at some point, but I've had some great Sangioveses from Italy, but for me they're always too rustic, they're too earthy. Our Sangiovese is light, it's crisp, it's fruity, it's fun. In fact it's so fun that we end up adding a little bit of Sagrantino or Syrah to my Sangiovese to kind of ground it a little bit, to give it some backbone. Otherwise it's too fun, too light for my taste. In the vineyard. I love how Syrah, in particular the Shiraz clone of Syrah, performs on its own roots. It is just incredibly vigorous and sturdy and produces wonderful yields, clean fruit.

Speaker 3:

I have a love-hate relationship with Primitivo, the Italian clone of Zinfandel. I have a half acre, but I have a half acre. I'll never plant another vine of Primitivo. It's just too prone to rot and mildew in our environment. We've had a couple of dry seasons so we now have a couple of nice vintages of Primitivo in the winery, but it's just too troublesome in the vineyard, in the winery, but it's just too troublesome in the vineyard. I could go on and on, but I'd say in the vineyard Shiraz is just fantastic, and the vineyard and the winery, both at retail Vionier and San Gervais, they do very well for us.

Speaker 2:

You mentioned, Greg, that Rob Hammelman. In essence, you're an official winemaker, so the wine is being made at his facility. Are you, Greg, doing tastings to the public?

Speaker 3:

Sure, so my tasting room isn't finished. There's a whole epic saga about my winery and why my winery isn't functional, and I'd rather not get into that in a podcast. But if somebody wants to join me for an on-site tasting, all they have to do is reach out to me, preferably through the website LaRamitaCellarscom, and we have a contact page there. Reach out to me, arrange a private tour and tasting. We can do a patio tasting and I will share with them all the trials and tribulations I've been through with the vineyard and the winery. The vineyard's actually been pretty easy. It's the winery that's been the challenge. Yeah, so that's lauramitacellars L-A-R-A-M-I-T-A-C-E-L-L-A-R-Scom.

Speaker 2:

And I'll put that on the show notes. Greg, let's talk about that name. What is Laramita?

Speaker 3:

That's interesting. That was the third attempt to name the winery, as I'm sure you found. It's difficult to find names for wineries and wines in this business, so don't infringe on somebody's existing trademark existing trademark. I wanted a name for the winery that reflected the rustic charm of the area. My first thought was Frontier Cellars. I discovered a trademark, though, held by the Fess Parker Winery in Santa Barbara, for Frontier Red. I sent them an email saying do you feel like this would be too much of an overlap, and their lawyer sent me back a very polite letter saying please don't use that name. Fair enough.

Speaker 3:

I was short on ideas, so I pulled together a naming committee some friends, family, people in the business and they came up with Outland Wine Works, and I did not find any trademark conflicts. I wasn't thrilled with the name, but I thought it could work. I attempted to trademark it. Within two months, though, I got this nasty two-page single-spaced letter from one of the largest wineries in the country. I'm not going to call them out, but you can look them up if you want to. They held a trademark for Outland Ridge, a big hill on their massive estates, and they accused me of trying to take advantage of their good name, a name that I didn't even know that they had. And a friend of mine that works in trademark law said you know, Greg, you could secure this trademark but it'll cost you $30,000 or $40,000. And I said you know, I have better things to spend $30,000 or $40,000 on and I wasn't that crazy with the name.

Speaker 3:

So after that, my naming committee was short on ideas. I arranged to spend a few hours at the Wilcox Historical Society. The gal knew what I was looking for. When I showed up, she had a stack of books waiting for me, books on the people, places and history of Southeast Arizona. I sat there for hours scouring through those books, jotting down any name that seemed halfway appropriate for a winery, and I brought that list back to my naming committee. We shortened it. I did some trademark searches, we shortened further. I ended up with maybe 10 names on that list. I set aside for a few weeks. I came back to it and decided that La Remita would be the name, and La Remita, as two words, means the twig in Spanish or the branch, and La Ramita as one word, though, comes from Arizona's first port of entry to Mexico, the tiny border village of La Ramita. It no longer exists, but there is still a concrete place marker on the outskirts of Douglas, If somebody wants to check it out. It was a real place but no longer exists.

Speaker 2:

Who helped you out with the design of the label, greg Thomas Johnson.

Speaker 3:

He's been really a key collaborator on all of this. He does all my labels for me. The font the La Romita Sellers font is a custom Western font and he was inspired to tweak it a little bit based on some Adobe architecture he found images of, and so it's a custom Western, southwestern font and the mountains in the background. The first time he presented me we've been talking about doing some sort of drawing illustration of the front label. First time Thomas presented me with that drawing that's on our front label. I said this is lovely, but where are these mountains? And we're standing in my opinion. He said, greg, they're right here. They're a little series of peaks setting between the Chiricahuas and Dos Cabezas and they're very close to my vineyard.

Speaker 2:

Amazing. Let's talk about going to market. So obviously a lot of first times for you in establishing the vineyard and there will be another podcast for the saga of the winery but let's talk about you getting a lot of Mita sellers out there to in front of people. What was that like?

Speaker 3:

So many people think that all that they have to do in this business is make good wine, sell it at a modest price and it'll just sell itself. But this is a crowded market and you go to any store. You'll find top shelf to bottom shelf they're crowded. There's plenty of product out there. So to get out there you got to push somebody else aside, and it's challenging. Selling wine is really the most challenging part of this.

Speaker 3:

I've been taking notes. Basically, I've been watching what others are doing. Sam Pillsbury he didn't realize it, but I was watching what he was doing. And Sam, he slowed down a little bit recently, but when I was getting started he was out there constantly. He'd be at Costco. One days later he'd be at a wine shop. Three days after that he'd be at a wine festival. Then I'd see him on TV or hear him on the radio. So I realized that's what I've got to do. I've got to be out there constantly, talking to anybody who'll talk to me, sharing my wine with them.

Speaker 3:

I was also impressed by the success of Superstition Meadery. They came along about the same time I did, of course, not needing to invest in a vineyard. They were able to invest in the brand. But one thing that they did was they had some people working with them that loved their product and were really good at selling. So they brought on some people early on who were fantastic salespeople, and that's something I've tried to do as well. I have three salespeople now help me in Phoenix, tucson and the Bray Valley.

Speaker 2:

Amazing. Have you, Greg, implemented a wine club? Do you have one? I?

Speaker 3:

do I do. I have a wine club. We have three levels 1880 Reserve, territorial and Pioneer. Each level has different commitments. Two cases a year. For the 1880 Reserve, it's just three bottles in the spring and three in the fall. For the Pioneer, the lowest level, and you get discounts. You get access to library wines. So there are some neat perks there. No freebies Freebies are illegal, but there are some things that are included in the cost of your membership. It's amazing and if anybody's interested in that, check out our website. We give all the details. We'd love to have people sign up.

Speaker 2:

Greg. So now you're a little bit over 10 years since you started this journey. Tell me some wins that you didn't think you would. What is your production right now, greg?

Speaker 3:

We're doing around 1,000 cases. We did a little over 1,200 in 23,. Just around 1,000 this last year. So we're right around 1,000 cases a year.

Speaker 2:

And do you have a relationship with a distributor or do you have a sales rep? So in other words, if a regular person wants to buy your wine, it'd be great to know where they can find it. Maybe in Tucson, in the Phoenix Metro. But if you're a restaurant buyer, Greg, where can folks get a hold of your wine?

Speaker 3:

Right. So I do self-distribute and we make a point. I know some retailers and restaurants have had issues getting product. We do attempt to get product delivered within two to three days. We make a priority out of that. On rare cases we may go a bit longer. But being self-distributed has certain benefits and certain challenges. Of course, my wines if a consumer is interested in my wines, we now have La Romita Cellars wines at a variety of restaurants F&B, obviously, beckett's Table and a number of retailers around the Valley, and Tucson and Arizona Wine Collective and Tucson has been fantastic for us. We have a great working relationship with them. If anybody's interested in where they can find our wine, they can to us through the website. I or one of the other salespeople, one of the salespeople get back to them right away and we actually I still do some home deliveries. So if somebody's willing to order a number of bottles, they might just see my smiling face in their doorstep. So if somebody is willing to order a number of bottles, they might just see my smiling face in their doorstep.

Speaker 2:

So that's amazing. Greg, tell some folks that never been to Wilcox what to expect and what do you like about your area? I know that when folks come to Los Milix to do tastings they sometimes ask hey, you know, where can we go to Wilcox, where can we stay? And, for example, for lodging, I normally recommend Todd and Michelle from Rum Life Vineyard. They have some lodging there. I know that Michael, pierce, barbara and Dan do tastings also in Wilcox. I'm not so sure what Sam Pillsbury is doing these days, but tell us a little bit about Wilcox If I've never been there before. Give me a few pointers, greg.

Speaker 3:

Well, I would recommend that your listeners start with checking out winesofwilcoxcom. That is probably the most comprehensive resource for wineries, tasting rooms, tasting room schedules, accommodations. Like you, I'd recommend the huts at Rumline Vineyard. They look like modest Quonset huts from the outside but on the inside they're finished like five-star luxury suites. Torito Farm they're kind of a new entity in the area. They just built out their project a few years ago. They now have geodesic domes on their property which I understand are very nice as well. So there are a couple of places to stay on the Wilcox bench and there are several nice hotels, motels in Wilcox. So there are a number of places to stay.

Speaker 3:

One thing I would caution your listeners about is things are spread out. I just spent the last weekend in Temecula and everything in Temecula is within 10 minutes. To get from Wilcox, though, to the Wilcox bench, that's 20 to 25 minutes, and getting from one vineyard to the next around Wilcox benchch yeah, five minutes, seven minutes, eight minutes, something like that. Things are a little bit more spread out than you find in other areas, but the views are fantastic and the weather in the spring and the fall couldn't be better, and it's a great place to visit. Greg, what about dining options? There are some good dining options. Trito Farm is very nice, the cafe if you want a lighter lunch. The cafe at Olive's Cafe at Rumline Vineyard is fantastic. There's good barbecue big Tex barbecue and Wilcox is great. We often eat when we're bottling wine. We often order takeout from La Unica if you want Mexican fare. So there are a number of good dining options around Wilcox.

Speaker 2:

I'm curious. Tell me more about the Torito Farms. This is the first time I've heard of them, greg.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so it's an agritourism enterprise set up by Sal I believe his name is Sal Torito and he's a heart surgeon from Tucson and he's built out this beautiful estate which includes a small vineyard. They have a few dairy cows. They have a small gift shop. You can buy products that are made from. You know, they have, like, dairy products from their own cows and they now have their own wine produced from their own grapes, and they have accommodations on site. They have some accommodations which are part of the main structure and, like I mentioned, they also have these geodesic domes. They have a lovely bar and restaurant. They make fantastic beer. They also have these geodesic domes. They have a lovely bar and restaurant. They make fantastic beer. The beer is incredible and it's just an agritourism enterprise and we've really been blessed to have them there because they've been able to do a lot of social media outreach and conventional advertising, which has brought a lot more traffic into the area, which we desperately need.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I did not mean for you to be de facto sort of Wilcox concierge, but I was truly curious. Now I am going to change gears, greg, because I was very keen or interested in speaking with you. As you know, I just purchased some of the Pinot Noir that you produce, and the reason why I bring that up is because, as far as I know, I think Eric Glomsky had a little bit of Pinot Noir once upon a time I don't know if he still does from Page Spring Cellars. I know also that Michael Pierce or Bodega Pierce and Seculum also had a little tiny bit of Pinot. But when we talk about Arizona wine in relation to what grows well or not, pinot Noir has never sort of led the way per se. No, no, and then you came along making one. That's quite quaffable. How you got to that point, I think, is a story worth telling, my kind sir. So take it away please.

Speaker 3:

Okay. So what does Pinot Noir need in the vineyard? To show what is best in the glass? Where are the best Pinot Noirs grown?

Speaker 2:

Well, for me I would say the extreme Sonoma Coast. There's some cool examples from Casablanca and Chile, and then obviously Burgundy. That takes the torch Right.

Speaker 3:

Well, I'm at Valley also, new Zealand, south Island, otaku. These are places around the cool side of viticulture and that is especially important for Pinot Noir. Pinot Noir has a much different tannin profile than other red grapes and those tannins need to be fully developed. And that can only happen in a cooler climate where the grapes are allowed to hang an extra long time without the sugar building up too quickly, without the acid dropping too quickly. We don't have the right weather. We get cool nights, we have lovely weather for most varieties, but not for Pinot Noir not when it wants to ripen because really it wants to ripen in July and August and allowed to ripen on its own schedule, the bricks climbs too quickly, the acid drops too quickly and you never get the best expression of the tannins. So that's why we have to do something special.

Speaker 3:

A number of years ago a good friend of mine, a member of my hobby winemaking club, az Winemakers his name is Nathan Brugnone. He introduced our club to this technique called crop forcing. Crop forcing involves plucking off all of the flower clusters in the spring, which leaves the vines with nothing to do until the third week of June, when we come through and we hedge the vines back and we prune them back like it's wintertime. We make sure to get every single leaf off of every vine. We just do this on Pinot Noir. We do this in third week of June.

Speaker 3:

The vines go through a week or 10 days of faux dormancy and then they start growing again, and this is time such that the new growth coincides with the onset of monsoon season. So it's kind of like springtime on steroids. It's warm and wet and fantastic growing conditions. The vines grow like crazy. But the important part is that last critical month of ripening is now not happening in the middle of summer, it's happening in October. In fact, the latest harvest we had was 2018, when we harvested on November 6th. I suspect that was the last harvest that year. The only people harvesting grapes later than that would be if they're doing like a dessert style wine and they want to get you know. Basically they want to harvest raisins because that's really pretty late in the season for us and the result is a cool climate style.

Speaker 2:

Pinot Noir. So, to paraphrase, most of us will start the pruning process sometime in January and we'll prune down to whatever two, three buds depending. So you let that happen, naturally, Greg. Then once you have flowering, you pluck all of them off.

Speaker 3:

Well, to be clear, we're doing it twice. We're doing a wintertime pruning. We're allowing the vines to proceed. You know, like all the other vines in the vineyard, Things don't get interesting, though, until we great the flower clusters in May, as they start to emerge.

Speaker 2:

Additionally, you pull off all the vegetative growth.

Speaker 3:

Then in the third week of June we hedge the vines back and prune them back. So the vines are going through two rounds of pruning every year. So this is not a cheap process. We're doing two rounds of pruning and we're doing all that the removal of the fire clusters and also another aspect of this is we are reducing yields. One negative for the vines is this does put a lot of stress in the vines, and one year we decided just to let the vines, let the grapes ripen on their own schedule, and 21, we produced a lovely Pinot Noir Rosé, just letting the grapes ripen on their own schedule, and for the Pinot Noir as a red wine we always use crop forcing for that.

Speaker 2:

Greg, when you made that rosé, did you by any chance make a little bit of red just to see no, no, or you knew that it was not worth it.

Speaker 3:

We've established reputation for making a cool climate style Pinot Noir and I did not want to sully our good reputation by trying anything else. I wanted to make a rosé. The rosé was lovely, but one thing I noticed that year was we had a lot of rot and mildew in the Pinot Noir, with it ripening on its own schedule. People talk about Pinot as being the heartbreak grape, and I can understand that. That's something we had not experienced, though, with harvesting, with pushing back the fruit development later in the fall, in October, our weather's cool and dry and we don't have any mildew or rot. You go through all of this crop-forcing thing and what you're left with is actually a fairly easy harvest with no issues with rot or mildew.

Speaker 3:

I would like to add that we're sparing no expense. Every year, I buy one new Burgundy Marcenet barrel, which is not cheap, and we're not making more than well. The most we've made in one year is a little bit more than two barrels, and I've studied everything that they're doing in, like Willamette Valley. We use our same yeast that they do, and we follow the same bit of cultural practices they do, except for crop. Forcing, obviously, is different, and we follow the same viticultural practices they do, except for crop forcing. Obviously it's different.

Speaker 2:

And in the winemaking, when we're talking about elevage or where this juice is sleeping, you're talking about this mercenary barrel At the cellar early on. What are you doing to the Pinot? Are you de-stemming? Are you doing some cluster? What are you doing?

Speaker 3:

Very, good question. So in 2017, we ran through the crusher to stemmer, like we do most of our reds, and for reasons that were more practical and logistics than artistic, we decided, into starting 2018, just to do 100% whole cluster, maybe 20% whole berries, and that's kind of been our standard practice since then. Not only is that just easier when working with such a small batch, not only is that easier, it also produces a much better wine. We recently did a six-year vertical of our Pinot Noir at the Sands Club at the U of A Stadium in Tucson, and that was the first time in years that I had sampled these wines. I have only held back a tiny number of library bottles, so it was the first time I was able to sample all of the Pinot Noir team. The one time we did not do any have any stem inclusion or any whole berries. That was the least interesting wine. 2018 and 2022 were, I think, our two best vintages, and the others were fantastic as well, so I'm convinced that Pinot benefits from some stem inclusion, some whole berries.

Speaker 2:

I want to pull on this thread about what led you to the decision initially, and I think you mentioned the logistics being a bit challenging. Can you say more?

Speaker 3:

Well, yeah, so one aspect of this is most of our harvest is happening in August, september, early October, so to have anything come in the winery around the 1st of November is a little bit disruptive. We're already done, everything's put away, and to have even a small batch of grapes come in that late is highly disruptive. But it's worth the trouble. And if we did have to drag out the crusher, distemper and process the fruit that way, there'd be additional equipment that had to be cleaned up and put back away, and I'm glad that we did discover again. For practical and logistics reasons we decided to do 100%. That turns out to be stylistically absolutely the right decision, and I've discovered since then that many premium producers of Pure Noir in Oregon do some or all stem inclusion.

Speaker 2:

I will piggyback your sentiment pertaining to logistics.

Speaker 2:

We'll piggyback your sentiment pertaining to logistics.

Speaker 2:

We at Los Milix planted some cariñan that I wanted to play around with and make some red wine, and on this site here in Sonovita, it's the last thing to ripen.

Speaker 2:

So let's say that the last thing that we normally pick here is Montepulciano around the last week of September, first week of October, like here is Montepulciano around the last week of September, first week of October, and Carignan just wants to hang out like until third week of October and the fourth week of October, and all of us are looking at each other, looking at all this equipment. So what we did differently this idea of obviously logistics to play a role in the decisions that we make I decided this year that I was not going to wait around for that gosh darned grape to ripen and we just picked it early and threw it into Sandra's Rosé to give it a little bit of carignan and to obviously try to close the window on what's already a long harvest season. Right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, greg, if you were to give someone a sort of a general picture of the Arizona wine landscape from the moment that you started to where you are today. What would you tell folks that, let's say, are coming to Arizona for the first time?

Speaker 3:

I would say well, I think we've seen quite an evolution over the last 10 to 12 years. There were some fantastic. Even back in the 1990s there were some great wines being made, but unfortunately those were not the rule. They're more the exception to the rule. And what we've seen over the last 10 years is a tremendous focus on quality, and everybody has upped their game. Everyone's trying to make world-class wines. Most are succeeding at that. So if you're coming to Arizona for the first time to sample our wines, you should expect to have some great wines. And, like I mentioned earlier, unfortunately we're all kind of spread out. So if somebody is coming for the first time, they do need to plan their itinerary carefully. Make sure that they're not planning on just jotting over from Elgin to Wilcox and jotting back to Phoenix in the same day or something. It's just a lot of driving.

Speaker 2:

The distances are quite remarkable. Someone wants to get into the wine world, greg, and I think. One thing that I've always found with Arizona winemakers is their propensity to be generous with advice. More specifically, the mess ups the mistakes. So if you had a young whippersnapper that it has a twinkle in their eye and they want to get into this business now that you've been in it knee deep for over 10 years, what would be some morsels of wisdom? What would be your advice to someone getting in?

Speaker 3:

I would caution them on their expectations again. I would talk to them about how challenging it is to sell. Even if you make the best wine in the world, you're entering a crowded market, so you need to temper your expectations. It does take some combination of energy, passion and money to make it in this business, and if you don't have money, you might be able to get investors. But if you have enough energy, enough passion, you can probably make it work. I think a good game plan is what everybody needs getting into this business.

Speaker 2:

And if you can go back, greg, and give yourself some advice, back in, let's say, 2010, what would you tell?

Speaker 3:

yourself. You know, I've never had any regrets about getting into this business Never, even when things weren't going well. I can't imagine my life as it would be without being in the wine business. So I still have a passion for this. I'm still glad to be here. But what I tell myself? That's a very good question. Just hang in there. You know, hang in there weather the storms and you'll get through it. Somebody asked me a while back how has this changed me? And I can tell you that more readily. When I got started, when those things would go wrong say, for example, the pump in the well would quit or something like that that would really get me down. These days, though, it's like it's another day in the business. It doesn't faze me at all. So, yeah, that's the advice I'd offer. Just hang in there and it's all going to be worth it in the end.

Speaker 2:

I so relate to that answer, greg. Early on, when I moved here to Sonoy Tan Elgin, any issue that would arise because it was new seemed like a mini crisis. And now, with a little experience under the belt, you just know that. I think in life you do for a living, you solve problems, or what kind of problems you want to solve is what you wind up doing. You mentioned you couldn't imagine not being in the wine world anymore. What did you mean by that?

Speaker 3:

There are many reasons to be in this business the opportunity to engage in the artistry of winemaking, the opportunity to be outdoors working outside much of the time. That's incredible. I didn't realize how much I missed that. You know, having grown up on a farm, I've met some incredible people who have become fast friends. So all of the benefits of being in this business greatly outweigh the negatives. You know the 3 am harvests and the worry about all the business aspects of it and all of that. So the benefits greatly outweigh the negatives and I would not give this up.

Speaker 2:

Well, greg, I can't thank you enough for spending a little time with me today. I'm going to say that I think your grandmother is somewhere smiling upon you right now. She is too. Thank you for having me. This has been a pleasure, sir. Thank you kindly, sir. Bye, bye, greg. And that brings us to the end of the show. But before we say ciao, ciao, I wanted to let you know that if there are any questions about winemaking you'd like me to tackle on the pod, don't hesitate to email me at pst at pavlimiliccom, that's p-s-s-t at pavlimiliccom. Also, if you dug the content and you know someone who would get value from it, please share it. And lastly, if you have been enjoying the show, head on over to wherever you listen, leave us a review and subscribe Until next time. This is your host, pablo Milik.